Dark Goddess Lilith

topic posted Tue, April 27, 2004 - 6:57 PM by  Metaphysics
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Black Moon & Astrology

*ASTRONOTE: This is not my area of expertise...I don't want to upset anyone here...the interpretations have come from articles off the net. I'm here to learn, so if any one wants to give their input(as always) please do : )

The Dark Goddess Lilith

Some say there is a second Moon circling Earth, a mysterious dark moon that is only seen on rare dates when it is opposite the Sun or when its shadowy silhouette crosses in front of the Sun.

* In the beginning was the Great Goddess, and the Goddess was the Earth, and the Earth was the Goddess. The origins of the cult of the Great Goddess lie hidden in the dim twilight of prehistoric time. The Goddess ruled for hundreds of thousands of years. In the course of time, the Mother-Goddess was overthrown and driven under, and the triumph of the most patriarchal of archetypes - Jahwe, God the Father, Allah - was complete in the Judaic, Christian and Moslem worlds. It was only in the tamed form of Mary, Mother of God, that some aspects of the Mother Goddess were permitted to survive. Various Black Madonnas in ancient sanctuaries still bear witness to her.

[One archetype of Lilith, the provocative and lustful creature, who rebels against the first man by copulating with demons and forcing Jahvé to create Eve. Since then until today, the image of "negative" feminine is part of every civilization: evil goddesses, pythonesses, necromancers, sorceresses, soothsayers and witches, who generally were ugly and bad, but also satanic charmers, able to push a man to perdition. In this way sexuality became synonymous with sin, dirty thing, loss of reason!]

Like a dust cloud, Dark Moon Lilith absorbs the light into itself, a very different process from that of our Sun-reflecting Moon. Whereas the reflective Moon represents personal, subjective feelings, the Dark Moon represents a primal, impersonal, creative instinct that seeks identification apart from the physical and emotional realms.

Astrology

The lilithian negativenesses, there are "melancholy" and "black mood" (Saturn has these properties, too). Therefore, to represent her astronomically, it's necessary to draw a waning moon with a low cross, considering that Lilith seems just an overturned Saturn.

On the other hand this planet is, to many writers, both female and male and, being the opposite of the Moon because it's situated at a distance of 180 degress, is its overturned image. By mere chance, Lilith, invisible satellite, has a glyph which is the overturned image of Saturn.

Black Moon & Astrology

In some horoscopes Lilith is shown, together with her influence on human sexuality. Her meanings in the Houses, the Signs and the Aspects with other planets will be more or less considered as those of a strongly damaged Venus or of a Venus who sublimes negatively her sexuality. We also remind you that Lilith, the Black Moon, allows us to discover, in addition to the obscure side of our sexuality, our relation with occultism, transcendent, mental powers.

In fact, if she's in a very strong position, Lilith always causes a strong intellectual excitement and plays a leading role in many horoscopes of mediums, occultists and sensitives. You don't have to be surprised by that, because the Moon, black or white, always symbolizes the unconscious, the intuition and the inspiration.
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  • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

    Wed, April 28, 2004 - 4:44 AM
    Mine is right smack in the middle of my 8th house Virgo. Do I dare ask what that means?
    • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

      Wed, April 28, 2004 - 7:45 AM
      Okay, now I'm really confused. The first time I checked for lilith on astro.com I typed in the number 1181 for asteroids and it showed in Virgo. Then I went back to do it again (I wanted to see if it was within 6 degrees of my venus) and noticed that I can just check lilith in additional objects. When I did this, lilith came up in pisces. So I decided to do both, and now I have 2 liliths in my chart, one in virgo and one in pisces. What's going on? Where is my lilith and what does it mean?
      • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

        Wed, April 28, 2004 - 8:46 AM
        Hi Freyja,

        You Liith is in 18 Pisces (2nd house)Trine Saturn and Venus : )
        • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

          Wed, April 28, 2004 - 8:48 AM

          Here is a brief overview of Lilith's placement in the natal charts. As with anything in astrology, her influence must be interpreted within the context of the total chart.

          Aries - Lilith in Aries is straight-forward about her sexuality and may use it to feel powerful. Applied in a negative manner, there may be temper tantrums or bratty behavior.

          Taurus - Lilith in Taurus may hide money or possessions, and there will be a great deal of secrecy regarding finances. This can also indicate miserliness, or a refusal to share one's resources with others.

          Gemini - When Lilith hides herself among the twins, she may exhibit a chameleon-like ability to be whoever she must be at the moment, hiding her true thoughts and feelings. If used improperly, the native may be considered "two-faced" or be a vicious gossip.

          Cancer - Hidden emotions may come out in ways that affect the physical health. When expressed in ways that are healthy, Lilith's influence here makes the native a powerful parent, or an activist for the protection of children. When negative, there may be chronic or psychomatic illness, or the tendency toward martyrdom.

          Leo - Lilith in Leo wants to be admired, but she'll never admit it. In creative expression, she will do things her own way and never feel obliged to explain herself. Taken to extremes, she becomes the prima donna, demanding and unforgiving.

          Virgo - Lilith in Virgo will often make the native very secretive or repressed in their sexual expression, and there will be much attention to hygiene and health-related details. When negative, Lilith in Virgo can be very cold and aloof, or extremely critical of the habits of others.

          Libra - Lilith in Libra may find herself concerned with the legalistic side of power. She is a defender of women here, supportive of laws that curtail abuse or sexual crimes. Taken to extremes, Lilith in Libra may be vindictive against those she perceives to be offenders, and in relationships may be clinging, jealous or manipulative.

          Scorpio - There are some astrologers who believe that Lilith is the co-ruler of Scorpio, along with Pluto. When placed here, she is powerfully sexual, hypnotic, seductive and wise. When under a negative influence, she can become bitter, vengeful or obsessed.

          Sagittarius - Lilith in Sagittarius may hide her emotions beneath a facade of humor or a mask of "niceness." She may keep her personal philosophies secret from others, keeping her own counsel. In the negative, this placement can indicate haughtiness, self-righteousness, and prejudice.

          Capricorn - Lilith in Capricorn will hardly ever share any emotions, and these natives may seem unapproachable. Achievement and status will be the method employed to feed the hidden need for emotional contact. At its extremes, here is the anal retentive who must control everything.

          Aquarius - Lilith in Aquarius will probably mask the hidden emotions with a series of ever-changing kaleidoscopic surface emotions, and will seem fascinating and elusive to others. The native may be chimerical, fluttering like a fairy from one situation to the next. At its worst, Lilith in Aquarius is irresponsible, remote, and refuses to listen to others.

          Pisces - Lilith is already secretive, and doubly so in Pisces. This is usually the person who has emotional wounding buried so deeply that they don't even know it themselves. Lilith's placement here may instigate behaviors which even the native finds baffling, and is often associated with passive-aggressive and unconscious behavioral patterns.
          By making peace with and embracing our own darkest emotions, we can integrate ourselves. Lilith is one of the keys in astrology which can help us attain that goal.

          • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

            Wed, April 28, 2004 - 8:53 AM
            Lilith - The Dark Moon

            She is reputedly Adam's first wife, before Eve. She is known as a demoness, the killer of infants in their cradles. She is the original woman, who refused to be subjugated to a man's desires. Consort to both the devil and God himself, she is the enigmatic and mysterious Lilith.

            A little-known element in astrology charts, Lilith is known as the "dark Moon" and, as such, represents our "dark" or hidden emotional selves.

            Lilith's placement in the chart is especially important to women, and represents the power of the original woman/Yin. In a man's chart, Lilith's placement will reveal the hidden power struggles or other issues he may have, resolved or unresolved, with the women/Yin in his life.

            Lilith is perhaps best understood in contrast to her counterpart, the visible Moon, Luna. Luna receives her self-fulfillment and self-definition through the nurturing of others. Lilith is self-fulfilled and self-defined. Luna represents the visible emotions; Lilith is those emotions which remain hidden or secret.

            Lilith lives behind-the-scenes, usually undetected. She can be sneaky or deceptive, but she can also indicate our ability to be subtle, to guide and manage events and people without being intrusive. She is our ability to be private, and her placement in the chart will tell you what the native feels most secretive about.

            As a Moon, Lilith is also associated with mothering, but she is the strength of a mother protecting her cubs. Luna is soft and kind and nurturing. Lilith is strong, a disciplinarian, and will kill any who threaten the well-being of her offspring. Lilith is protective and self-protective.

            She protects herself from her own toxic emotions, becoming the guardian of shame, guilt, hatred, vengefulness, bitterness, envy, jealousy. We look for Lilith in our charts to discover which defense mechanisms we employ to hide our wounding.
            She is also the femme/Yin fatale - the sexually powerful woman.

            She affects dreams, especially sexual ones, and is an influence in trances, hypnotism, the channeling of entities, interdimensional beings, and possession.
            • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

              Wed, April 28, 2004 - 3:31 PM
              Chaz you wrote:

              "[One archetype of Lilith, the provocative and lustful creature, who rebels against the first man by copulating with demons and forcing Jahv éto create Eve. Since then until today, the image of "negative" feminine is part of every civilization: evil goddesses, pythonesses, necromancers, sorceresses, soothsayers and witches, who generally were ugly and bad, but also satanic charmers, able to push a man to perdition. In this way sexuality became synonymous with sin, dirty thing, loss of reason!]"

              AND

              "She is reputedly Adam's first wife, before Eve. She is known as a demoness, the killer of infants in their cradles. She is the original woman, who refused to be subjugated to a man's desires. Consort to both the devil and God himself, she is the enigmatic and mysterious Lilith."

              Chaz, I must say that I do not know where you are getting this highly misinformed material about Lilith, but I will say that I find it very disturbing and will have to disagree with what you have posted...I do know that there is alot of misinformation about her out there. I am not speaking about your astrological interpretations, because I have no knowledge of whether it is accurate or relevant, but from the mythological perspective, all of the information you posted seems to be from the patriarchial transgressional and biblical version which has contributed over many thousands of years to the lowly and morally ambivalent staus of women, who were regarded either as wicked, evil or demonesses and baby killers like Lilith, or who were regarded as Eve's co-conspirators in the fateful deed of disobedience in paradise, in which all of human race suffers from due to this supposed sin created by woman.


              I personally don't buy any of this shit, and if you are interested in knowing some of the TRUE myths that surround Lilith, Adam and Eve, I will try to find some postable material...

              Please let me know?


              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                Wed, April 28, 2004 - 5:07 PM
                Persephone,

                While I agree that the descriptions Chaz posted are patriarchal based, that certainly doesn't discount them as untrue from certain cultural and mythological perspectives. Indeed, these are the myths held by a large portions of Jewish society for thousands of years. I was at a lecture on the Zohar last night given by a former orthodox jew, and he echoed everything Chaz posted. This isn't misinformation, its just biased. Notice Chaz said 'one archetype', as in one view which happens to be held by entire cultures. I look forward to the perspectives you provide.
                • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                  Wed, April 28, 2004 - 5:31 PM
                  Persephone,

                  I understand and your right...that's why I started with a disclaimer.

                  *ASTRONOTE: This is not my area of expertise...I don't want to upset anyone here...the interpretations have come from articles off the net. I'm here to learn, so if any one wants to give their input (as always) please do : )

                  ... and this is the dark side of the myth, my next post is the light.

                  In tribe I think my post are to long, how to share all the wonderful insights in such a short post?

                  I put this paragraph in here to tell the story of the biased Patriarchal Archtypes… I should have included more.

                  · In the beginning was the Great Goddess, and the Goddess was the Earth, and the Earth was the Goddess. The origins of the cult of the Great Goddess lie hidden in the dim twilight of prehistoric time. The Goddess ruled for hundreds of thousands of years. In the course of time, the Mother-Goddess was overthrown and driven under, and the triumph of the most patriarchal of archetypes - Jahwe, God the Father, Allah - was complete in the Judaic, Christian and Moslem worlds. It was only in the tamed form of Mary, Mother of God, that some aspects of the Mother Goddess were permitted to survive. Various Black Madonnas in ancient sanctuaries still bear witness to her.

                  I feel the same way that you do esp. when I get how bad Saturn is or Scorpio, etc is.

                  You should have seen the other articles…I thought this was tame…any way

                  Please forgive me if this was not the way to go about this…

                  Xofer your right too…it’s just that with-in this tribe I want to give the highest (positive) view of planets, signs, aspect, myth, etc.

                  Something we can all benefit from.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                    Wed, April 28, 2004 - 6:18 PM
                    Many view the 'darker' aspects of ther Lilith myth as the embodiment of the liberated woman thowing off the shackles of the patriarchy . In this manner, I think she serves as a great archetype.
                    • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                      Wed, April 28, 2004 - 9:32 PM
                      That’s a good point Xofer...

                      I've been searching and it just seems like there’s no way around this myth being the Dark side of the Moon. (pictures in tribe photos)

                      The only way for me is to call on my hero Jung… So instead of war of the roses, we place Adam and Lilith in each man and woman.

                      Persephone, if you find something please share

                      www.dharma6.com/html/the_myth.html (from the article below with pictures.)

                      lilith.abroadplanet.com/Modern.php (here’s another site)


                      Lilith

                      According to the myth, God’s first attempt at creating humanity resulted in an androgynous being that was both male and female, joined as one. Could this be a symbol of the integrated personality of Jung, where the male Animus and the female Anima are joined in full cooperation? In the story, however, God thought twice about this model and eventually split the two halves, creating one in the shape of a man, (Adam) and another as a woman (Lilith). Both were said to have been formed from the dust of the earth, and should have been considered equals, but Adam chose to deny the equality of Lilith and strove instead to dominate her. It is here that the rift begins that has wounded both men and women through the ages.

                      As Jeffrey Smith analyzes it: “In psychological terms, he (Adam) identified with his own ego, and not with his full self; confronted with his Shadow/Deeper Self, he rejected it, or at least tried to subject it to the demands of his ego. Lilith's response was to fly away…(Adam, after all, lost one half of his own self.)”

                      When Lilith refuses Adam’s domination, she calls on the ineffable name of God and leaves him. One should note that the inverse was also true, for in leaving Adam Lilith also loses one half of her self. To my thinking, this separation is wonderfully reflected in Carl Jung’s psychology, where the personality has several aspects: The male side or Animus, the female side or Anima and the dark repressed side or Shadow. The work of “integration” according to Jung is to heal the separation between these aspects of the self and become a fully actuated person where each aspect is accorded equality. The story of Lilith is a perfect illustration of Jung’s “archetypal symbols” reflecting this basic human truth.

                      To continue with the myth, when Lilith flees Adam the Hebrew version of the story casts her in a dark light and shows her fleeing to a cave to mate with serpents and spawn a hundred demons each day. In Jungian terms I see this as the rejected Anima consorting instead with the Shadow, the repository of repressed, negative and undesired traits in the psyche. When God then fashions Eve from Adam’s rib, Lilith, in her agony, returns to prey upon the children of their union. Smith continues to assert: “If we return to our image of Adam as the ego and Lilith as the Deeper Self, then we find that the ego represses and drives into the Deeper Self what it cannot accept, and what it deems as illegitimate. And what is repressed rebounds on the ego in the form of the demonic, destroying what is acceptable and "legitimate" (symbolized by the offspring of Eve).” -- Jeffrey Smith: www.lilitu.com/lilith/lilit.htm

                      To my mind the myth of Lilith appears to be an amalgam of the Anima and Shadow, and may be a powerful archetype for a man who has failed, by other means, to re-integrate his Anima into the self. It is as if the Anima then flees him, as in the traditional telling of the tale, and consorts instead with the Shadow. The resulting union creates a powerful figure that returns to force itself upon him in his sleep, charged with the power and psychic energy of a sexually dominant being. This being, in its alliance with the Shadow, is now fully capable of subduing his Animus, or male egocentric self, rendering it powerless and paralyzed, while the union is forced upon him.


                • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                  Wed, April 28, 2004 - 10:27 PM
                  I do apologize to you Chaz, if I seemed to be overly authoritarian or fussy in my last post (Yes, I did see your disclaimer at the beginning of your post)!!!

                  To me, Lilith is a Goddess, not just some cultural or mythological archetype, or some figment of our imagination. I do not believe that the mythology is just biased, as Xofer has pointed out, but it has been blatantly mucked with to defame the Goddess, which I perceive to be the worst crime committed against Her, though Her reemergence will correct the true myth and restore the truth about Her...However, I do not advocate propagating this supposed biased view to others...

                  From the personal perspective of many women who I have emailed or talked with, Lilith is very much a part of their magickal lives, she is a Goddess that has reemerged in this time to restore the Goddess centered culture and balance to this planet, and she is is a symbol of Feminism, and is a living, breathing, timeless and REAL Goddess. As an example, I will use Xofer's current pic and story behind it and hopefully so he can understand more as well (hope you don't mind Xofer : ))) In much the same way that Xofer has told me about his experience when he was channeling Krishna...at that time period, he WAS Krishna and you can see it in the pic, and I'm sure the wisdom he gained from mediating Krishna has not been portrayed in a book or is available on the net, but lives within him and whomever he chooses to share it with. In much the same way, the Goddess Lilith lives in many women who have mediated Her, humans are working Her magick through them.. it is mutually beneficial, and NO she is not here to do evil works or bewitch anyone. Also, I don't want to exclude men here, I know that there are men out there as well who honor and work with Her...

                  Well, that's my story for now...to be continued... : )))
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                    Wed, April 28, 2004 - 11:14 PM
                    I find this topic very interesting, coz apparently Lilith seems to be currently manifesting in my life to offer a number of interpretations.

                    First, let me establish that I consider truth to be that which works, that it is fluid and subjective, which is in accordance with various theories of quantum physics and such.

                    That being said, this Sunday I have been invited to a Beltaine celebration honoring various aspects of the Goddess in her more sensual aspects. Five women will be embodying various goddesses, and one of them (a local pagan author who has published a book on 'dark' deity archetypes) has chosen to personify Lilith as an archetype of 'dark' lust and sexuality. Is this the truth of Lilith? For this woman, such is so. Is this an aspect of the Goddess that I choose to regularly revere, or strictly associate with Lilith? Not really, but I don't judge or deny it either.

                    As with Krishna, when I was embodying him I chose to view him as the manifestation of the fun loving and sometimes hedonistic agape principle inspired by various Vedic texts, which is quite in contrast with the Hari Krishnas who choose a celibate, sober (and what I would consider prudish) path in veneration of their interpretation of Krishna.
                    Once again, their truth of the divine is different than my truth, but they both seem to work as sources of spiritual nourishment, so I say worship as you will. Spirit seems to be flexible that way.

                    So concerning deities, personally I consider them aspects of divinity, just like the many of the ancients. I hear you Persephone about Lilith being revered by many as a very real Goddess, but I'm not quite sure what qualities you consider to be her true characteristics as opposed to the 'darker' archetype many associate with her that seems to offend you, and I am curious about your truth concerning Her.
                    • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                      Thu, April 29, 2004 - 3:12 PM

                      I certainly don't want to discredit Jung here at all...his archetypical androgynous psychology is an essential key to integrating all of the myths into the psyche, and it is a huge part of the whole. I think Jung was a genius!

                      But, for a moment, I'd like to step back to support some of my previous posts and claims about the patriarchal religions and cultures who tried to suppress or destroy the Goddess's (under many names and guises) culture, civilization, myths, artifacts, and almost all remnants of Her, but thanks to clever archaeologist's like Marija Gimbutas PhD., they were not thorough enough. And I've found a few bits to share with you that can hopefully support the alternative and suppressed myths from pre-patriarchal times... run it through your own truth filter and see if it works for you...The main myth here I'm focussing on for now is the myth surrounding Lilith, Adam and Eve...

                      I will quote some intriguing info below, which was taken from an article called Isis, Lilith, Gello: Three ladies of Darkness, by Alejandro Arturo Gonza'lez Terriza:

                      ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/To...Gylu.html

                      There is information in this article that I don't support or agree with, some of it is biased and he does compare some of the orthodox scriptures to his own beliefs about them...they are 'His' opinions. Plus, the main reason for the article is to compare the three Goddess's magickal ability, opposition and disobedience of divine law over a monotheistic and all powerful God. Good topic, but not exactly what I was looking for, but here's a few quotes that I do ( mostly) agree with, though none of this really should be taken at literal value:

                      "Adam and Lilith were not a happy couple. When he wished to lie with her, Lilith alleged that the recumbent position he wanted was denigrating to her. «Why must I lay beneath you?» -she asked-, «I also was made from dust, and am therefore your equal». As Adam tried to force her, Lilith, in a rage, uttered the magical name of God, rose into the air and left him. (Theatrical and magnificent fleeing which recalls the end of Euripides' Medea).

                      Adam complained to God: «I have been deserted by my helpmeet». God made at once a command, formed by angels Senoy, Sansenoy and Semangeloph, and sent them with the order of bringing Lilith back. The angels toured the orb, and found her at last beside the Red Sea, a region plentiful of lascivious demons: Lilith matched them happily, and gave birth to lilim (children made in her image) at a more than hundred per day ratio. «Come back to Adam without delay» -the angels told her- «or else we'll drown you!». Lilith asked: «How can I come back to Adam and live like an honest housewife after my stay beside the Red Sea»

                      Lilith story is specially appealing, as it's something like «the Black Book of Genesis», the true story of what happened to first man and woman in the beginning. While Eve admits that she's inferior to man and submit her fate to him, Lilith considers herself superior, and distances herself from his authority, fleeing from Paradise, and getting so free also of the terrible curse of Fall. While Adams gets mortal and perish, Lilith remains immortal for ever; and, opposite Eve, who obeys the double male authority of her husband and her Father, and which has been made secondarily from male flesh, Lilith, which is as ancient (or more) than Adam, refuses to accept machismo (or phalocratism, as they say in Greek) in any way: not only the missionary position that her husband applies for, but even the commands of God through his angels. In spite of the boasts of these, she stands still, and, though with statutory restraints, keeps on with her temptation job.

                      Anyway, leaving aside the feminine and even feminist value of this indomitable woman, the most fascinating trait of this story is, as far as I can see, just what it doesn't say: the secret that allows Lilith flee from Paradise and, later on, to even disobey the divine commands. The question is: how did Lilith know the hidden name of God, that name which God didn't want to reveal to Moses, shielding himself with paraphrases (Ex. 3, 14), and which is so important in Kabbalah: the name of infinite power which was written in Solomon's Seal, according to the Talmud, and which gave him power above all the demons? "

                      ***Another important side note to this myth is the importance of language differences of the past and the current use of the word 'demon', which was once spelled 'daemon' and did not have the evil or malevolent associations that is implied in the use of the word today.

                      The below information is quoted from a book that I would highly recommend called:
                      The Myth of the Goddess -- Evolution of an Image, by Anne Baring and Jules Cashford.

                      "The Genesis myth is unique in that it takes the life-affirming images of all the myths before it - the garden, the four rivers, the Tree of Life, the serpent and the world parents - and makes of them an occasion not of joy and wonder, but of fear, guilt, punishment and blame. And what or whom is blamed but precisely the woman and the serpent, incarnations, previously, of the goddess and her power, bestowers then not of death but of life eternal.
                      As we have seen in the mythologies of Mesopotamia, Egypt and Greece, the tree, with the serpent beside or entwined around it, was the Tree of Life of the great Mother Goddess, and the serpent was her manifest form in time, ever dying and ever renewed like the moon, which slips from its shadow as the serpent slips from its skin.

                      If Eve was charged with bringing death, sin and sorrow into the world, Lilith was demonic from the moment of her creation. Lilith arose out of an attempt to make sense of the difference between the two creation myths in Genesis, since in the first story, in Genesis I, male and female are created equally and together, while in the second story, in Genesis 3, the female is created after the male and out of his body. In the simple logic of legend, Lilith was the first wife, who was worse than the second. Yet the figure chosen to play this role in Judaic legend was originally Sumerian, the bright Queen of Heaven, whose name "Lil" meant 'air' or 'storm'. She was often an ambiguous presence inclined to 'wild, uninhabited places', also associated with Inanna in her dark aspect and her sister, Ereshkigal, Queen of the Underworld.

                      In both orthodox and apocryphal literature, Lilith's shadow falls on women as far forward in time as the fifteenth century AD, when, [...] thousands were accused of copulating with demons, killing infants and seducing men - of being, in a word, witches."

                      (Example given from the Apocryphal Book of Ben Sirach):

                      "Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart:
                      Any any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman.

                      I had rather dwell with a lion and a dragon,
                      Than to keep house with a wicked woman.

                      All wickedness is but little to the wickedness of a woman:
                      Let the portion of a sinner fall upon her.

                      Of the woman came the beginning of sin,
                      And through her we all die."
                      (Sir. 25:13, 16, 19, 24)

                      **End of book quoted material**
                      < Just lovely, isn't it? >


                      Here is the agnostic view of the Adam and Eve story called The Genesis Factor, by Stephan A. Hoeller
                      www.webcom.com/~gnosis/genesis.html

                      Quote from the article:

                      "Nowhere is Eve's superiority and numinous power more evident than in her role as Adam's awakener. Adam is in a deep sleep, from which Eve's liberating call arouses him. While the orthodox version has Eve physically emerge from Adam's body, the Gnostic rendering has the spiritual principle known as Eve emerging from the unconscious depths of the somnolent Adam. Before she thus emerges into liberating consciousness, Eve calls forth to the sleeping Adam in the following manner, as stated by the Gnostic Apocryphon of John:

                      I entered into the midst of the dungeon which is the prison of the body. And I spoke thus: "He who hears, let him arise from the deep sleep." And then he (Adam) wept and shed tears. After he wiped away his bitter tears he spoke, asking: "Who is it that calls my name, and whence has this hope come unto me, while I am in the chains of this prison?" And I spoke thus: "I am the Pronoia of the pure light; I am the thought of the undefiled spirit. . . .  Arise and remember . . . and follow your root, which is I . . . and beware of the deep sleep."


                      ***Hopefully this information and examples of some excellently researched material is enough to show how false information and a myth which is literally conceived can create a prejudice and become a doctrine that declares itself wrongly to be divinely revealed truth. Like I said, everyone is free to make up their own mind, but I know my choice.
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                        Thu, April 29, 2004 - 11:09 PM
                        Persephone, I must admit I'm a little confused now as to waht you are attempting to convey. Personally, I'm very familiar with all the myths you presented, and for the most part they tend to reflect or be the exact same myths that most of the 'patriarchy' endorses ( as in Lilith being the first wife, not wishing to obey Adam, and liberating herself to go away and become the mother of 'demons', and also as a source of magickal power and serpentine wisdom). Is it that you agre with these myths that you have presented as more as accurate than what Chaz was initially presenting? They seem to be similar to me. I think ultimately the 'truth' about these Lilith myths depends on the choice on how you judge her actions. A bunch of patriarchal control freaks view her actions as bad and disobedient, feminists view her as strong willed and independent. Same scenarios, different views.
                        • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                          Thu, April 29, 2004 - 11:47 PM
                          Well... Xofer, you and I could go round and round about this forever, and unless we resurrect some of the people who lived during the Sumerian time, we will never have the historical accuracy to support the kind of proof that an cynical optimist (using your own words to describe yourself) probably needs to see the obvious differences in the orthodox patriarchal myth, compared to the non- orthodox myth. I would also consider myself a stickler for historical truth and accuracy, however carbon dating of the Sumerian artifacts of Lilith and other relics of symbolic significance do support the Goddess's reign during the time of 3500-2500 BC and have no place in an orthadox Jewish or Christian biblical myth or story since it doesn't correlate with the Genesis myth (IMO). This is simply enough proof for me!

                          Besides that, the book I quoted, "The Myth of the Goddess" only refers to the othodox and apocryphal stuff from the Ben Sirach to support how corrupt and blatenly defaming and distorted it is, but the book contains much information from non-orthadox sources and pre-patriarchal versions of the myths, which I do think I made clear by the authors interpretations which I quoted. If you want to know where the authors get the information, it's all in the footnotes, so you'll have to get the book. Also, I don't know how you can even compare the agnostic myth to the orthodox Christian or Jewish myth...they aren't even slighly similar. And yes, to answer your next question, Eve and Lilith are essentiallly viewed as one and the same by most experts on the subject.

                          ~May you have a blessed Beltane~
                          • Re: Dark Goddess Lilith

                            Fri, April 30, 2004 - 12:13 PM
                            I think this is great : )

                            Persephone Anu, wonderful job you did it!

                            To me none of this is true except in "right now" who cares what they thought.

                            To me, that’s the magic of Myth...I could be way off here but, Persephone Anu's point is to use the Myth of Lilith to acknowledge her goodness, the misrepresentation and bias of truth for so long (and who cares who wrote what, when, where and how... if women today are still being mistreated) if and in doing so, creating a new understanding of Myth a new dimension and appreciation for Lilith for women (and Men) to help us learn the wrongs that have been done by patriarchal view.

                            This my be the very thing to open a new understanding of Homosexuality

                            Even to this day men have to see, hear, feel, and know this…

                            this is our MOTHERS… WE ALL COME FROM THIS SOURCE and if we don’t subject ourselves to reunite twith he goddess/goodness in all of us we all lose…

                            maybe that’s why we are in a war now because we haven’t learn these lessons? WE STILL THINK MIGHT IS RIGHT come on let’s wake up the world.

                            Xofer, I’m not taking sides here but, I think I understand your point (again I could be way off) it’s the Myth of ages and these are the stories that go with it good or bad…and yes that’s the image and truth back then and can still be a part of our wisdom and learning of today. But, for me I say don’t cling to… that’s my point.

                            I think this is very similar to my perspective on Astrology in which most astrologers feel you need to include two planet rulerships (Mars and Saturn) to the Signs Scorpio and Aquarius which is true but, here and now we’ve risen to a new consciousness and we can change the past and the future by the “Now” it no longer serves us

                            Same way with Slavery…and the discovery of America

                            Now kids can learn of there true history about how the Africans and Natives were here first and how Africans have traveled the world before slavery i.e. the moors had conquered Spain, etc

                            In order to move forward we need to move with the myth and so called actual facts to coincide with our current growth in consciousness if we didn’t we would keep the same mind set…even if that means taking the old and giving it a new spin.

                            Xofer you said it right “A bunch of patriarchal control freaks view her actions as bad and disobedient, feminists view her as strong willed and independent. Same scenarios, different views.

                            Why not tell the story to empower her (us)

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